SUNDAY RANT: I Don’t Understand What’s Wrong With Marvel Fans
Listen, I’m no authority on mainstream comic books because the dialogue is often so cheesy it drives me to drink (more). But Marvel fans, I want it established that I am on your guys’ side when I say this:
Why are you okay with the fact that Captain America and Thor were total fucking garbage? How are you not the most offended and angry fans on the planet right now?
Seriously, this should be you: （╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Someone honestly needs to explain to me why loyal Marvel fans aren’t rioting in the streets in response to these two films, because God knows if these two franchises were as special to me as they surely are to them, the rage fire that would be shooting out of my eye sockets would be burning down entire cities.
Let’s get one thing straight: Iron Man was fantastic. I cannot get enough of the first Iron Man. Tony Stark’s personality, the storyline, the dialogue, the action scenes, the beautiful mix of comic book fun with (what could be) reality – it was all so wonderfully coherent, believable, and well done. Gwyneth Paltrow’s acting was utterly horrendous, but really, what else is new.
Iron Man and the new Batman films (which I realize are not Marvel, get off me) prove that superhero movies can be amazing. We know it’s possible; we’ve established a successful formula.
SO THEN WHY DID CAPTAIN AMERICA AND THOR HAVE ME LAUGHING OUT LOUD IN THE THEATER?! FOR NOT-GOOD REASONS?!
Captain America had the worst pacing I’ve almost ever seen in a film. The first half was brilliant, then spiraled so fast into the Bay of Fail it was baffling. Montage after montage with very little real action or suspense. My friend Ian Tornay said it best:
“If this were an entirely new IP, it would be a shit brick. The only reason it’s bearable is because of nostalgia and sentiment.”
I don’t understand why the scientists went to such great lengths to create this “Super Soldier” just to forget about him ten minutes later. They were all, “OMFG AMAZING IT WORKED HE’S HUGE AND LOOK WHAT HE CAN DO HE CAN LEAP OVER CARS!” And then what happened? They basically ignored him and let him become a stage-performing monkey in a costume. It was as if everyone didn’t even give a crap that he underwent such an incredible procedure. It’s like saying, “We built a billion dollar rocket-powered 700mph Ferrari that could win any race in the world – but let’s not race it, ever. Let’s put it in local PARADES! For CHILDREN!” It wasn't believable by any stretch of the imagination.
So, then this Super Soldier walks up to Colonel Tommy Lee Jones and says, “I am extremely awesome and would like to do what I was created to do, which is kick ass and be awesome.”
Tommy Lee Jones responds (gruffly): “You pansy pussy candyass tights-wearing girl! You think you can be a real soldier? Go polish up your finger nails and watch Beaches, you frilly little fruit cake bitch!”
Then Captain America is sad. Then he decides to go do some heroic shit all by himself anyway without thinking it through because he’s just badass like that, apparently.
Tommy Lee Jones responds (gruffly): “What! You let my BEST SUPER SOLDIER go off to get killed?!?!?!?!”
WTF. YOU JUST CALLED HIM A PANSY AND TOLD HIM TO GO SCREW HIMSELF. NOW SUDDENLY HE’S YOUR STAR PUPIL?!
And that is so just the tip of the iceberg.
I can’t even think about this movie without having a ragefit. Same with Thor. Can someone explain to me why this god from outer space can show up on earth and immediately know how to put on blue jeans and cook scrambled eggs and isn’t confused by SUVs, yet when he’s in a diner, he doesn’t understand the concept of not shattering his mug on the floor? Sure, it was funny when he did it, but it made absolutely no sense.
I’m not going to go further into detail about everything that angered me about these films, because I’m not here to vent. I’m here because I genuinely want Marvel fans to explain to me why they not only tolerated these films, but actually enjoyed them. Please, for the love of God, enlighten me, because I nearly walked out of the theater when I expected to see a real story of a superhero and all I got were flashy, shiny turds.
Marvel fans, you deserve better.
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August 28th, 2011 - 18:02
Yeah, when are they going to make a Captain American movie that is true to the comics?
http://www.leetoons.netne.net/images/captain_america_comics_4.jpg
http://www.bcotd.com/2004-11-24_Captain_America_Comics_No16_July_1942_Timely_Al_Avison_cover.jpg
August 30th, 2011 - 15:00
haha, yes,
they actually should
August 28th, 2011 - 18:06
Oh, good. I really did not like Captain America, and I think I only liked Thor because the character was new to me and I found the Asgard stuff interesting. But in retrospect, it probably was garbage.
I really do not understand all the praise for Captain America, and I thought I was maybe going insane. The majority of the movie is a montage – even one particular train sequence that SHOULD have been emotionally powerful but was instead totally flat and boring because it was part of a MONTAGE.
There’s pacing a movie weird, and then there’s Captain America.
So thank you for speaking out on this!
P.S. On the other hand, I drank up Conan the Barbarian. Maybe something IS wrong with me…
August 28th, 2011 - 20:28
its like you said at the beggining, the writing in marvel is cheesey and stupid, but we love it anyway. Take your Thor example: the fact that he smashed his mug didn’t make sense in respect to the rest of the film, but it was a funny moment, and thats all that really matters.
I’ve always thought of comic books as something to just have a bit of fun with, but not take too seriously, and same with the films :)
August 28th, 2011 - 20:38
I definitely see what you’re saying, but I believe there are two schools of thought regarding your comment. Filmmakers, above all, need to make up their minds:
Are they making a fun Popcorn Flick to entertain superhero fans? (See: the original Batman movies with Michael Keaton, fantastic films.)
OR
Are they making a realistic, stylistic well-made piece of art? (See: the new Christopher Nolan Batman films, also fantastic.)
YOU CANNOT MIX THEM. You cannot STRIVE for a well-made, stylistic, artistic film, like the first half of Captain America, and then ruin it with ridiculous motorcycles flying through Michael Bay-esque explosions, like the second half of Captain America.
Iron Man rode the line between Comic Book-y and Good Film perfectly. It CAN be done. It’s just not being done.
August 28th, 2011 - 21:50
good point, i think the fact that i haven’t seen captain america yet is making me look upon the series with perhaps undue fondness. but i will stand my ground and say thor is a good, fun film, just not in the same way as batman/iron man
my main concern is the up-coming avengers film. since iron man is a “quality film”, thor is more “fun action flick”, captain america is sounding like “blidge”, and they’ve completly recast the hulk (as well a adding some heroes alot of people wont even know), i think THAT will be the real super-mixed-message-cross-genre-fuck-up
August 28th, 2011 - 22:21
But Iron Man had the same disconnect. The first part was super in the reality, the second half becomes the action film. Batman Begins did the same thing. So Capt America is trying to follow in their footsteps, but couldn’t nail the blend. In a truly brilliant film they would’ve kept running with that propaganda job line all the way though, building this super solider and then never EVER using him, even as the world ends. Much better commentary on America, if that’s what they thought they were doing…
August 28th, 2011 - 22:22
Ugh. Realize that makes it look like I said Iron Man and BBegins had a disconnect. They didn’t because they are perfect movies. But in an act structure way… it’s very much like Capt America borrow the one sheet and just wrote in different locations and time period, but the Devils in the details.
September 1st, 2011 - 11:25
Good point, mixing can give us great things but it depends who are mixing them. For example, I’d never let Chris Redfield mix anything ’cause Capcom clearly demonstrated he can’t.
Filmmakers seems to be a little all over the place in the past decade, especially in the superhero genre. They do leave their marks and trademarks here and there (See: Doc Oc hospital scene in Spiderman 2) but from my point of view their visions seem a little…castrated.
Marvel’s been a stalwart in keeping a sort of ”loop” with their franchise characters. You can pick up pretty much any comic they make and just get into it, its more for the masses. Whereas DC’s been a little more centric with their characters, relying mainly on a dozen. So I guess their movie counterpart kinda reflect this train of thought.
Pacing in comic seems tough to reproduce on screen, Iron Man (like you point out) seem to have succeeded but only because they took a different avenue from the comic. Actually, the movies seem more comic ”booky” than the actual comic, but that’s only my opinion.
I only wish they’d stop doing 1h of ”origin” and 30 minutes of action. As much as I like character depth and all, when I go see Superman, I want to see him punch an alien in the face (or faces) at superspeed. In the startosphere. On fire.
August 28th, 2011 - 22:11
Sure, Thor and Captain America could’ve done better. Comic books are rarely taken seriously but what USUALLY makes a good film is 1) a good director and 2) a good amount of time.
For the two comic book movies is like, “Ok, we got the good stuff out of the way. Now let’s rush everything else to meet The Avengers deadline.” I mean the films practically came out the same time.
The expectations for comic book fans are already fulfilled. For them, if its like Nolan’s Batman films, they see the director stays true to the comics (if the comics is good). And if its like Thor, who cares, the comics have done better.
Now, when I said USUALLY, I mean taking it with a grain of salt. There has been history of good films done in a very short amount time and bad ones that took all the time in the world (HOW is that even possible).
August 28th, 2011 - 23:07
I think a lot of it is anticipation for The Avengers. Marvel fans have been looking forward to the film for a while, and that’s probably behind a lot of the goodwill towards the two films.
However, I did like both films (Although I think the avengers affected my feelings towards Thor a bit). I think some of the problem is that both heroes aren’t exactly the most serious out there, and that it turn affects the movie.
Thor has always been a little on the goofy side, even recently quoting Youtube. And he can fly because of his hammer. So he’s not been on real solid footing :P
Cap has always been more of an ideal than an actual hero. If you made another hero like him, who had the same powers but not the backstory or national identity he’d be seen as kind of generic.
So as long as the movies sort of stick to the core of the characters, I think Marvel fans are ok with the movies. Besides, we all know it could be a lot worse. We all remember X3 and the Punisher :P
August 29th, 2011 - 01:02
Foiles, you know I love you, but I don’t think it’s that huge a deal. I’m a massive, massive fan of Isaac Asimov, and all the movies based on his writings are mere shadows of the source. That’s ok though, because they don’t take anything away from the books.
They’re designed to have mainstream appeal, which means the the niche they have in our hearts has to be dulled a bit. That’s how us humans get along. We never *quite* understand each other completely, so we work a bit to find common ground, and from that get to know each other better.
That’s how I look at these movies. It finds a middle ground between the source and the masses. When I was a kid, comics were for the social fringes. These days, it’s cool.
Having said that, I admit I like being part of a niche group with our inside jokes and references, and we’ll always have that. I also admit it’s designed to make movie studios pantloads of cash. There’s a benefit to it though, now when I meet a random person and tell them about all my geek loves, they’re far more receptive to it. I love spreading our medium to other people, and the mainstream appeal of the movies has made that easier.
August 29th, 2011 - 13:13
Lisa, let me begin by saying that I worship you, everything you post, every video you are in and every member of your family, friends, fans and France. However, you’re claim that Iron Man is “the only one who knows how to not suck” is WRONG!
Here is a couple of scenes from Iron man:
Terrorist: You will build us missiles, infidel dog!
Stark: Sure thing. I will need some padding, a armor-shaped mold…
Terrorist: AHMED! I hope you are writing this down!
some time latter…
Terrorist: So how is the missile coming along.
Stark: Great! I just finished the boots.
All this makes sense to you, but you want someone to explain to you “…why this god from outer space can show up on earth and immediately know how to put on blue jeans and cook scrambled eggs and isn’t confused by SUVs, yet when he’s in a diner, he doesn’t understand the concept of not shattering his mug on the floor?”
Well, for one thing he is a God, a superior being from a world of superior technology (compare Mjölnir with our earthly hammers and you’ll see my point) which is why he can easily find his way around a place so primitive that it’s inhabitants believe that their SUVs are such fantastic contraptions that all outsiders who see them should bow before them, filled with a sense of mystery and awe. On the other hand, it is customary in his home realm to smash a mug when you’re done with drinking, just in case you’re the one who gets stuck doing the dishes. I hope my explanation helps you enjoy “Thor” as the second best superhero movie that it is (after “Watchmen”, naturally).
August 29th, 2011 - 14:52
That’s what I was thinking, too. Pants & cars are simple to understand objects, especially to somebody who already has superior technology, and even Asgardians gotta cook their food (“They just have their servants do it!” What servants? EVERYONE in Asgard is a god!). Mug-smashing, on the other hand, is a cultural thing.
To use an “All That” analogy: Ishboo knows full well how to cook a chicken because everyone eats (even in his “foreign land”), but he doesn’t understand burning candles on his birthday cake, because that’s a cultural thing.
August 29th, 2011 - 14:55
Hm. Yeah, okay, I can see that.
August 29th, 2011 - 15:34
Touchy subject for me only because I am a big fan of comics but I also understand how directors take “creative control” of films. For example: Thor’s stupid romance with Natalie Hotass Portman. In the original comics the character she played was a nurse and took care of the guy who was going to be Thor. Anyway the reason they keep doing things like adding stupid little jokes here and there is the same reason why Nintendo is making a new system with the title “Wii” still in it. Casual audiences.
In reality, does the casual audience care about Iron Man, Captain America, or Thor? No. Do they know who the Avengers are? no. There’s a reason they choose well known actors/actresses for these films. Otherwise no one but comic geeks would see them. Another example is Green Lantern. That shitstorm still did decently well in sales only because people wanted to see Ryan Reynolds aka Deadpool. They simply the stories, throw in stupid jokes, and hire well known actors just so the casual audience can “get it”. Does it suck? Yes and no.
As a comic book fan I really don’t like how they change the origin stories just so joe schmoe understands it, but I treat them like I would when they reboot a series. Explaining the same story in a different way to a new audience. Now I personally found Cap and Thor to be decent movies, honestly Thor seemed better than Cap and Iron Man 2 but that might just be me.
This all centers around the changing world of comic books. Its sad really. You go to San Diego Comic Con, guess where the most empty section of the con will be? The comic section. Go figure.
August 29th, 2011 - 18:05
The scientists weren’t trying to create a single Super Soldier, they were trying to create a replenishable army. I’ll admit, it does take a bit of suspension of disbelief to believe that with the german scientist guy dead and the lab destroyed, they didn’t have any hope of replicating it but it wasn’t too far for me to go.
As far as they were concerned, Steve was the only return they would get on their investment (which was probably really big) and they didn’t want to risk losing him to a lucky bullet after just a few missions work. So, they decided he was best put to work drumming them up war bonds (they went up 10 percent or whatever in states he went to) to buy guns and train guys that weren’t irreplaceable while he was kept safe and could continue to inspire the country etc.
August 30th, 2011 - 04:59
I’d like to say in all retrospect, you really cannot create a perfect comic book movie that correlates with the actual comics. Many have tried, and most utterly failed (not to the extreme but it has it’s moments). The reason is by reading comics, there’s the plot, there’s the dynamics, the long length character development that all attracts the readers. By acknowledging most comic books, many of them have had series that lasted a couple decades. Trying to compose all of that into a now 2 hour film is nearly impossible to include everything. The spiderman movies(although mildly entertaining until #3) tried to write the script decently enough to have comic fan value. I may be rambling/ranting etc etc but my point is, in order to grab the mainstream viewers into comic book heros with movies, they have to basically follow the comics strictly. This will include a long running series of movies which will end up with cliff hangers and captivate the audience to want to watch more. I mean two series have done this, one has grabbed fame and recognition off it. I’m talking about Harry Potter. They decided to split the last book into two movies(Smart idea) which left most die hard fans wanting to watch more and anxiously waiting until the last film came out into theatres. The idea is the film industry is somehow reverting back to early film history by creating a movie/film series that will have ending cliffhangers at the most pivotal point where audience members are begging for more. Therefore film companies put money into the next film -> create it -> produce merchandise and trailers-> attain more revenue -> Movie finally releases -> cliff hanger in film -> audience wants more–> circle repeats itself. I don’t know this is my opinion as a Film freak, Comic book Geek and a gamer dude. Please shine some light on this.
August 31st, 2011 - 07:15
I have no history reading Marvel comics at all. I loved Iron Man because the actor matched the character to a T. And it was just plain badass. Thor reminded me of a daytime soap opera more than anything and Captain America was just kinda meh. I had bigger expectations out of both movies because of how awesome Iron Man is. I liked Green Lantern but it didnt leave me hanging on the edge of my seat or anything.
August 31st, 2011 - 17:11
As a Marvel(well more comic books in general) fan boy, I actually enjoyed both Thor and Captain American now wouldn’t I say that they’re perfect or as good as the dark Knight or Iron Man. I was actually impressed with them keeping true to their origin and costume design while making sensible changes. I know some Comic might object to the changes made, but lets be honest somethings that work in comics just don’t translate well into film. Personally the acting and relationships in the movie were pretty great more so in Captain America than in Thor (I thought Portman and Hemsworth had good chemistry, but the pacing was so quick that at the end it felt rush).The problem is that flaws totally does take away from the experience. Thor suffered from a weird pacing and a meh climax though I enjoyed Captain America very much I know people might complain about the second half of the movie but I mean yeah it was cheesy but in between vita rays and granny’s with Thompson machine guns it felt appropriate.
September 1st, 2011 - 03:46
Aww, I really enjoyed Thor. I thought the Shakespeare setup worked perfectly. The dialogue was well written, decent acting throughout, excellent bad-guy, and I thought I laughed for all the right reasons (but then again I thought I laughed for the right reasons during the first transformers movie too – “to punish and enslave” anyone?).
I also found the recent Batman movies insufferable. Art? I am all for straight delivery but, no .. just no. And I am very partial to the original Ras al Ghul comic books. So making him the villain should have been an easy sell to me. It still didn’t work. Arkham Asylum took a dump all over those movies.
If you want to get this Marvel fan to rant, bring up the Fanta4 movies. Especially the atrocious way my darling Silver Surfer got raped and abused. And Galactus? A cloud? Seriously? Jack Kirby won in the end, because that Surfer had absolutely friggen nothing to do with Lee/Buscema. Now, THAT was a fine piece of art!
September 2nd, 2011 - 23:37
God damn, thank you. Those movies sucked ass. Except for Anthony Hopkins on the rainbowlol bridge.